Forum software has been updated!
  • If you subscribed to Digests, click your name on the top right, then User Control Panel, then Digests tab and resubscribe.

Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Discuss upcoming events around the state.

How should we cover future CAM costs?

Charge an annual member fee similar to other Geocaching organizations?
11
11%
Cachers who complete CAM can pay for the coin at cost on the day of picnic, then at increased rate afterwards.
48
46%
CAM Completion Coin for free and sell special edition CAM coins at a higher cost plus donations (like this year).
31
30%
Keep it the way we did in the past, and pray we get enough money to cover the next year's cost.
10
10%
Do you have another idea, comment with it below.
4
4%
 
Total votes: 104

User avatar
cooley1103
Former MGS Officer
Posts: 1269
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:51 pm
14

Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by cooley1103 »

To vote click up to 2 options above, and click "Submit"

Each year the MGS typically gets enough funds from the Summer Picnic auction and donations to cover all of our costs throughout the year, however our costs are continually rising. As these costs continue to rise, the MGS is looking for options to raise money going forward? Our largest cost, by far, is the CAM coins.

What is our costs?
CAM Coins (Design fee, Minting fee, Coin cost, and Shipping)
Pavilions (CAM, Summer, and Fall Picnic)
Hall rental (CAM After Party?, Holiday Swap)
CITO Pavilions & Meet the Officer locations (typically free)

NOTE: Comments will not be counted as votes. You can come back later and update your vote, if you change your mind.
Image
User avatar
nighthawk700
MGS Member
Posts: 519
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:44 pm
14
Location: You have to solve the puzzle to find out.

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by nighthawk700 »

Not an idea, but a question. What are typical fees that geocaching organizations charge? I'm only familiar with MGS and NOVAGO, neither of which charge to be a member.
rmnedrow
MGS Member
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:23 pm
8
Location: Nottingham, MD

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by rmnedrow »

If you charge a fee to be a member maybe you could have different levels of membership. Higher membership levels could have a small reward like a free set of cam path tags or something like that.
User avatar
TeamRedOak
MGS Member
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:00 am
18

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by TeamRedOak »

If you have to charge a fee, perhaps only charge to participate in CAM. I thought the after party was only because we could not sell items at the Federal park. It was fun, but made for a long day. Not sure there will be a need for an after party in the future. I did miss the 50/50 this year and isn't there usually a donation jar as well? I don't see either at the after party.
I'll admit we don't really participate in any of the picnics aside from CAM. So do we need to have them all? Perhaps only have CAM in the Spring and then a late summer or early Fall gathering.
tazscouter
MGS Officer
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:00 pm
13

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by tazscouter »

There was a donation jar present at both the CAM Picnic and the CAM Afterparty. As an officer, I was also handed money to place in such container.

We also received at least one donation for "just because". The person had some extra money one month and sent it for CAM or whatever else is needed.
Always Lost 00
MGS Member
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:18 pm
15
Location: MD

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by Always Lost 00 »

Is there a place to see where and how our money is spent ? I know as members of the American Legion we could have rented a Hall for the After Party, Cheap.
User avatar
hostanut
MGS Member
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:03 pm
15

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by hostanut »

Our bylaws state "An active member shall be defined as an individual whom attends at least three or more club events annually or otherwise actively contributes to the club via the Website or other Society related activities."

Perhaps active members would get a free CAM coin (if CAM is completed by them).
Non-members and non-active members could buy coins at cost at CAM picnic.

Yes, I know that cachers could become active easily by posting in the forums.

Another thought is ONLY 1 free coin per family....additional coins would have to be paid for.
User avatar
Calvertcachers
Former MGS Officer
Posts: 2163
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:00 am
20
Location: Chesapeake Beach, MD

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by Calvertcachers »

Future of CAM coins, MGS Membership and More
I was rather perplexed to see the post about CAM, future coins and possible MGS membership fees. This post is not meant to be a jab at anyone, I am just asking the hard management questions.

We have completed every CAM since the beginning in 2004, and yes, CAM has grown by leaps and bounds every year. I have also been involved with the planning and organizing of CAM and MGS events since 2005. The CAM coins became very popular, and the purchase and award of the coins have been self sustaining by our members through MGS member fund raising efforts; summer auction, donation jar and through the sale the of the extra CAM coins. Actually, in most years, the sale of the extra CAM coins covered a good amount of the coin expense. Basic geocoin production generally costs between $7.00 to $10.00. Example, the 2013 MML geocoin cost $7.20 each x 250 coins = $1,800.00.

As a former officer of the MGS, we would discuss our events for the year, expenses, budget and fund raising, and to be honest, it has always worked out and plenty of funds were left over for the next year. There were a few years where one of the MGS Officers would pay the CAM coin minting deposit just so we would not drain our funds and would get reimbursed after the sales.
As a result of the two donations made to the MGS from excess GW funds (August 2015 and again in early 2016), the MGS should have been set for several years. In reality, the MGS is healthier today than we have ever been in the history of the organization. If budget is a concern, then maybe it is time to look at expenses and how money is being spent, and insist for a monthly reporting of funds and expenditures to be posted on the MGS forum in detail outside of the meeting minutes. Or possibly a mid-year independent audit.

For example, do we really need to purchase CAM coins in two different minted metals? Yes, it was nice to have the CAM event at Antietam but knowing NOW that the venue was truly not set-up for an event and took a lot of extra funds & effort, why wasn't an NPS site like Greenbelt Park or another NPS location that is better equipped for a large event selected? Also, how much extra did this costs the MGS?

The MGS Cafe Press account for CAM gear and Pathtag sales raise a few dollars for the MGS.
Did the CAM pre-launch and after events cost extra and IF so, was it really needed?
Since the inception of CAM in 2004, the picnic is consider the final destination of CAM, and to be considered as completing CAM, you must attend the event. CAM coins were awarded to event attendees, one per geo-name and we had set an age limit years ago.

I noticed in meeting minutes that business cards and name tags were ordered for officers, was this really needed? (We use to make our own at home IF we had to go to an event where business cards were needed but most often we used the MGS brochure with our contact info on the back).
We also noticed that officers were wearing MGS shirts with names and titles, IF, I am saying IF these were purchased with MGS funds, this is wrong.

In the April meeting minutes, there is mention to change the MGS Bylaws for spending over $100.00 to be voted and approved by the current officers. There is a process to change the Bylaws and this is not it. Plus, as a former Officer, ALL spending was discussed. Every dollar!

In my experience with managing the MGS, the biggest expense of the year was the CAM coins but like I said, some of the funds were recoup through excess sells. Other major expenses were the pavilion rentals for the 3 main events; CAM, Summer and Fall. The event rental for the CITO is generally negotiated in exchange for the park clean-up. MD State park rentals can range from $150.00 to $500.00 for a pavilion. The holiday event was added several years ago and has been a big hit. Members donate the items for the events; plates, cups, utensils, charcoal, food, drinks, etc....

In August 2015, this was a reporting of the MGS account:
Finances
a. MGS bank account $7200.00
$813 from the silent auction
$150 from the 50/50
$540+ from the four high-end raffle items
$2,500 check from GeoWoodstock Committee
$134 cash from sold merchandise by the GeoWoodstock Committee

February 2016 Finances
a) MGS Bank Account Balance: $10,375.94
b) Checks are being ordered for the transition of the treasurer position
c) $280 were raised for the Pathtag Raffle at the Meet The Officers Event

March 2016 Finances
a. MGS Bank Account
i. $9,142.28
b. Paypal
i. Decided to not hold extra funds in the account. All MGS funds will
be kept in the bank account.
7. MGS Badges/Business Cards
a. Badges
i. Received - Will be delivered to officers this weekend.
b. Business Cards
i. Received and are available
User avatar
zekester
MGS Member
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:00 am
17

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by zekester »

A few broad picture thoughts: thoughts:

As folks who have struggled at times to meet the "attends at least three or more MGS events annually" due to work and travel schedules, Simon and I have made an extra effort to contribute to the organization in other ways. We have long believed that the MGS should pursue a long term financial development plan that includes the development of an endowment whose annual generated income supports the routine expenses of the organization (the costs that Cooley1103 listed above). This, of course, puts an increased burden on the core and the board to manage those funds well and responsibly. It also requires multiple funding campaigns for a few years, in order to maintain the status-quo while developing the endowment. It is however, a reasonable path towards creating a permanent solution to the funding issue.

Currently, the MGS is a non-profit that is not a tax-exempt entity. That means that donations anyone makes to the organization are not tax exempt, and cannot be deducted as charitable donations from one's annual tax return. I believe that the MGS should make an effort to explore what would be required too shift to tax-exempt status and pursue it. This would encourage more donations for either annual costs or an endowment.

What percentage of the membership are CAM participants? Understanding this metric would go a long way towards making an informed decision about the questions raised above. A review of logs from all of the MGS events over the past few years, bounced against the list each year of who qualified for CAM each year would provide these metrics. If CAM is the largest burden that the organization faces, then it is not unreasonable to expect that the CAM participants pay for it, as opposed to the entire membership subsidizing it. What is the percentage of CAM participants who also attend three other MGS events? Or, from another point of view, what percentage of CAM participants participate in only CAM each year. The organization needs to develop these metrics to have a better understanding of what its constituency actually does in order to make an informed decision. Anecdotal evidence is not enough.

Specific thoughts on the proposed options in the poll:

"Charge an annual member fee similar to other Geocaching organizations?"

If the MGS instituted an annual fee, we would likely buy in, as we regard the benefits that the organization brings worthwhile. That being said, if this is being done solely to support CAM, we would take issue with it.

"Cachers who complete CAM can pay for the coin at cost on the day of picnic, then at increased rate afterwards."

As far as funding CAM goes, this is the best option offered. CAM participants should cover the cost of CAM rewards. A shift in viewpoint to leveraging CAM as a revenue stream as opposed to a subsidized MGS activity is likely the right call.

"CAM Completion Coin for free and sell special edition CAM coins at a higher cost plus donations (like this year)."

Second best option, but it forces the non-CAM-participating members to subsidize CAM. Very much less appealing.

"Keep it the way we did in the past, and pray we get enough money to cover the next year's cost."

The fact that you are taking a poll indicates that this is an issue that needs to be addressed. Hope is not a plan. This option kicks it down the road to the next core and board to deal with. Untenable.

I've long been hoping for an MGS geocoin that is not related to CAM. Sounds like that is unlikely. Well, like I said, hope is not a plan....
User avatar
cooley1103
Former MGS Officer
Posts: 1269
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:51 pm
14

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by cooley1103 »

Thank you to everyone's responses so far, and we are looking your questions and will have answers, but we are going to let others reply before building our responses so we can address all questions at once.
Image
User avatar
EagleBlazer
Former MGS Officer
Posts: 1579
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:00 am
18
Location: Glyndon, Md.

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by EagleBlazer »

As a former officer and trusted servant of the MGS for 3 different years, my experience has been to raise the money through donations, 50/50s, summer picnic auction, path tag sales, cafe press sales and selling the extra CAM coins left. We never had a problem with having enough funds to cover expenses. We never got more than what was needed with expenses. If there was something extra we wanted to throw in or needed then we paid for it ourselves out of our own pocket. $9,000- $10,000 should have been enough to cover at least 3 years of CAM and rentals. I sure hope we are not broke to the point of having to ask these questions. The poll title says potential changes to CAM coin distribution but charging a member fee as a whole to pay for coins should never happen. If the MGS is going broke paying for CAM coins (which it shouldn't be) then the next option is to cut the coins out for the sake of the organization to stay a float.

This year was a cool CAM being in all the National Parks but having the final picnic in one and not being able to do any fundraising, selling coins or 50/50 most likely hurt. You have to strike while the iron is hot so to speak. I know for myself that I was very disappointed I could not buy extra CAM coins at the final picnic.

Pavilion rentals are a big cost when you have 200-300 people coming. Quite a few times I visited, called, and emailed the rangers in the park and negotiated with them offering geocaching seminars or a CITO in trade for a pavilion or lake house. A lot of times you can get some discount because you are bringing a lot of people to their park or facility where they charge for entrance. In essence you are bringing them a lot of money.

The MGS is run by volunteers who are elected into office and there is a lot of burden put on them to keep things rolling for us. PLEASE remember that they are VOLUNTEERS who love the MGS and that's why they serve. I know they are doing the best they can to keep this a top geocaching organization.
______EagleBlazer_____

Image
BladenV
MGS Member
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:57 am
9

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by BladenV »

The CAM coins should remain free for CAM Completion and should solely be funded by the MGS (through donations). I agree with CalvertCachers that, even with increased costs, proper budgeting should be the first step towards addressing this issue. CAM is MGS' premiere event and the prospect of getting a coin at the end is a nice carrot on a stick to encourage driving 800+ miles and to contribute food to the potluck picnic.

Having to purchase a coin is another expense that may deter participants. What's the point of completing CAM if you don't get a tangible reward?

Cut costs where needed, keep CAM completion coins free.
User avatar
Janji
MGS Member
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:00 am
16
Location: Catonsville, MD

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by Janji »

A few years ago when the coins were given out, the announcer asked for a donation for the coins. When I received my coin and the one I picked up for a fellow cacher who couldn't make it, I donated the cost of the coins. I thought that was a great idea. I don't mind paying for my coin. Not everybody might like compulsory payments, but if people can choose to make a donation it would be a viable option.

I also don't think that a membership fee should be instituted just to pay for CAM. I like that I am part of MGS, even if it is mostly as an participant. I'm proud of this organization, it's accomplishments, and its reputation. I think, a membership fee will change MGS's character.

Also, we could sell MGS coins again as a fundraiser. We haven't had those in a while, and for those of us who care about MGS (not just CAM) would love to buy them. MGS is bigger than CAM alone.

Correctly, CAM participation as risen greatly over the last few years. However, this year was exceptional due to the partnership with the national parks and the media exposure. I don't think, it'll be this high every year.
User avatar
coupleocachers
Former MGS Officer
Posts: 2478
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:00 am
18
Location: Waldorf, MD
Contact:

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by coupleocachers »

CAM coins didn't come into effect until 2008 or 2009. We completed CAM back in 2007 and just got a certificate. It was nice to have the coin, but its still fun to do CAM without the coin in the end. We would still go just to see the sights and have fun. Its not about the Coin for us.

When Amelia was born and she went with us to every CAM cache I would like her to get a certificate, even though she isn't aware of whats going on yet,but she does love caching. So what we do is pay for her coin or donate money for her coin at the event. And we will continue to do so until she wants to pay for her own or moves out, as long as their are CAM coins to be purchased or earned.

I do agree we only need one type of coin don't need anything special, but if we did..Keep the original coin for completing CAM and if there is more than one member completing CAM in the house hold one Coin per household and there are any extras members in the house hold who have their separate account just pay for them at the normal cost at the event(if they can't attend the event, but have completed CAM give it the people who completed at the same price at the picnic, if they didn't complete CAM and want one increase the cost). If you had a special CAM coin minted that should be for Sale more than the normal cost of the participation Coin.
We are now Mr. And Mrs. Coupleocachers and Proud parents of AmeliaGrace
Image
User avatar
Corfmania
Former MGS Officer
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:09 pm
14
Location: MD

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by Corfmania »

I want to say up-front that CAM this year with the National Parks was amazing. Bravo! As usual the MGS is a model for geocaching community groups and continues to do amazing things to foster and advocate for the hobby we all love.

What's that old adage? Ah yes, "Expenses rise to meet income". The MGS and a bunch of organizations were blessed by a windfall from GeoWoodstock that should be, in the course of normal and "traditional" business in MGS, totally ignored. If not it should then at least formally dispositioned. This seems like a good topic to also raise with the MGS Board of Directors. It really does go to the heart of the operation and health of the MGS and should be debated beyond the core officers. I'm happy to see this thread. I know the intent is looking ahead with CAM, but the poll and responses seem intertwined with perceptions about our holdings and spending.

For ongoing operations, including CAM, normal budgeting restraint and horsetrading should apply and our substantial cushion should (some portion) be saved for a rainy day if legally allowed, and the remainder used to improve the MGS (how is a separate discussion). I'm intrigued by Zekester's mention of some sort of endowment. I have no idea if that fits with a 501(c) like ours but it's an interesting idea. At any rate, be in the black, but act like you're in the red.

CAM has grown a lot. Therefore I would expect that MGS would grow in rough proportion, and so would donations. Although the idea of charging cost for the CAM coin would probably reduce risk, and be generally agreeable, I think the goal should be to keep the CAM coin as an MGS funded reward for completion and attendance. Sell extras, just like it has been historically done. Special edition coins are not necessary, nor are coins for hiders IMHO (being asked to hide is a massive honor). Same with Pathtags to a lesser extent since those can be a good source of revenue. Changing the financial model for CAM away from MGS funding is easy. Knowing it must be changed is a lot harder. I hope an opinion poll like this is just part of informing the analysis and any decision.

CAM is unique to MGS and it is a long-standing tradition. It creates buzz on a national level and certainly in the mid-Atlantic it draws members back, new members in, and visitors from all around. The guarantee of receiving a coin for attending is now a huge part of that tradition. For an organization like MGS to be able to continually host CAM, and reward participants with a coin is a great thing and shows we're a great organization with AMAZING volunteers and responsible stewards. If we can keep it going like years past, that's my vote. Oh, except no more school bus. I'm hijacking the thread I know, but a carefree day coming and going was dearly missed.

Also, not sure where to post this. I'll do it here so it is recorded although I assume it will show up in the MGS minutes somewhere. GeoWoodstock XIII remaining inventory transferred to TazScouter from Corfmania on 5/1/2016:
40 water bottles
103 cachekinz
104 silver geocoins
115 backpacks (more or less)
Shirts:
2-L
3-2XL
2-3XL
3-4XL

Cache ON!!
User avatar
Hixon
MGS Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:57 am
12
Location: Frederick, MD

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by Hixon »

I appreciate the appeal & attraction of a free & fantastic coin as the reward for CAM. I earned my first one this year and loved it. However, I feel like MGS is so much more than CAM, and spending should reflect that.

I would like the amount spent on CAM each year to be proportionate to CAM participation. Using fake numbers, if the MGS annual budget is $1,000 and 40% of cachers in MD do CAM, then CAM should get about $400. The rest should be spent fulfilling the MGS mission in ways that those that don't do CAM can appreciate.

I know this raises more questions, e.g.: How exactly do you quantify the MD geocaching community? What would we finance, if not fully subsidizing CAM coins? That's beyond this thread, but I'm sure we can figure it out.

Another option to consider is keeping a "General Fund" as well as a dedicated "CAM Fund" separately on the books. Give donors the option to specify one or the other (or a mix) when they donate. CAM is financed solely out of the CAM Fund. Many volunteer organizations use such an accounting model when they have a large project like this--it lets folks speak with their pocketbooks.
tazscouter
MGS Officer
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:00 pm
13

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by tazscouter »

Corfmania mentioned that there was a transfer of supplies from GWS to the MGS.

We have sold or gave away some at the Afterparty. We currently have the following in stock:

Water bottles: 12
Geocoins: 112
User avatar
WVKiwi
Former MGS Officer
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:00 am
16
Location: Herndon, VA

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by WVKiwi »

Just for clarification --- Tazscouter, does that count include coins from another source? I'm trying to figure out how Corfmania's count of 104 coins transferred increased to 112?

Is this posting referring to coins remaining from Corfmania's transfer plus other sources, a total count of trackables remaining (cachekinz & geocoins), or was there an error in the count?
User avatar
Corfmania
Former MGS Officer
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:09 pm
14
Location: MD

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by Corfmania »

WVKiwi wrote:Just for clarification --- Tazscouter, does that count include coins from another source? I'm trying to figure out how Corfmania's count of 104 coins transferred increased to 112?

Is this posting referring to coins remaining from Corfmania's transfer plus other sources, a total count of trackables remaining (cachekinz & geocoins), or was there an error in the count?
Officers can tell the real story, but I had the bulk of the inventory. However, there was a good quantity of geocoins that were in the hands of MGS already.
User avatar
cooley1103
Former MGS Officer
Posts: 1269
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:51 pm
14

Re: Poll: Potential changes to CAM coin distribution

Post by cooley1103 »

Corfmania wrote:
WVKiwi wrote:Just for clarification --- Tazscouter, does that count include coins from another source? I'm trying to figure out how Corfmania's count of 104 coins transferred increased to 112?

Is this posting referring to coins remaining from Corfmania's transfer plus other sources, a total count of trackables remaining (cachekinz & geocoins), or was there an error in the count?
Officers can tell the real story, but I had the bulk of the inventory. However, there was a good quantity of geocoins that were in the hands of MGS already.
Steve is right, we had some coins on hand before he emptied the GW warehouse (otherwise known as her garage).
Image
Locked