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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:49 pm 
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I'll be in town for GW XIII and wondered if there is any interest in climbing PUC #13? http://coord.info/GCY72P


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:00 pm 
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YES! I am not and am unaware of anyone in the area able to free climb. We would then need rope and ascenders for the others to get to the top. If you have it or know someone that will be in the area, lets do this. If you would like to contact me directly, my email is [email protected].


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:43 pm 
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Great! This has been on my bucket list for a long time.

This is a much more difficult climb than anything I've done before, so hopefully some more experienced folks join up too.

There's quite a lot of gear required, so I'll see if I can start a list.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:28 pm 
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I am very interested. I would love to do this!! I took one rock climbing class. That was enough to show how much I really don't know. If I join the group, I could climb (with the proper equipment), I could belay, I could offer encouragement. I am in if the date is right and someone with all equipment would let me join in!!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:29 am 
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We've been looking at doing this one remotely for some time. We'd be very grateful for a report on the conditions after your expedition, we are particularly interested in the state of the tree that was growing on the north side, and how much the hide is vertically obscured by it (i.e. if your approach was from above would you have access to the hide?) We have a bucket load of photos and height estimates from our earlier site surveys, including photos of a climber on the structure, we'd be happy to share should you require them.

I would also not that while the terrain rating for this hide is accurate, we believe it is overrated for difficulty. One can easily see the hide from the western shoreline with a long lens or binoculars if one stands up by the monument above the college. This may be a difference in how one interprets ratings; we think terrain speaks to how hard it is to get to ground zero and difficulty speaks to how hard it is to find the hide once you are at ground zero.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:48 am 
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I would definitely be interested. I did a little bit of rock climbing in the Army and am proficient in repelling. Several folks in the area have canoes and kayaks to aid in transporting equipment.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:38 pm 
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I would be interested as well. I will see if I can scrounge up some climbing gear for this one as well. Hope to see you all there.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:21 pm 
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I am absolutely interested!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:48 pm 
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I'm potentially interested. I have a kayak and some basic climbing gear, including harness and aiders (rope ladders). What I don't have is much climbing experience. While I don't think I'd have any problem climbing up a static line, I wouldn't want to slow the group down.. so I'd only want to go if there were other beginners going too. But definitely interested!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:44 pm 
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Oooo, just saw this thread. The potential danger in climbing the PUC13 pillar is great. It's not for those with a little bit of climbing experience... for those serious in wanting to achieve the goal of claiming a find on PUC13, I highly recommend preparing yourself by developing/practicing the skills needed beginning NOW, as well as planning and gathering needed equipment. If the cache is to be reached by climbing the pillar (the most common approach), experienced climbers are needed and it is not safe nor appropriate for experienced climbers to need to give climbing lessons to those less experienced on the day of the climb.

Yes, some finders have free climbed the pillar, with appropriate safety measures, however I believe it's easier climbing-wise to use ascenders to reach the top. Use of ascenders however requires first getting a rope over the pillar... a significant feat in itself that has defeated some attempts in the past. Help from previous local finders on the day I expect will be limited as they will be busy with GW itself, however they can be a great resource for sounding out plans and what will and won't be likely to work.

There are of course other ways to score a find that don't involve climbing... I shall copy (next post in this thread) Vinny's note logs from 2010 that cover this and common sense standards for what constitutes a legitimate find claim... note that I WILL delete finds logged by anyone that does not meet these standards.

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Last edited by Sue-Cat on Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:53 pm 
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Quoting Vinny:

I have always felt that this cache can be tackled in a great number of ways that will allow a person or a team to sign the logbook, and, as I have stated in local and international forums and on the cache listing page, those methods that I feel are workable (and have, at times, suggested or at least helped others in their attempts to implement them) include:

1) rope climbing, using rope ascender tools, followed by rappelling (or jumping).

2) rock/wall climbing, either free and without equipment, or on a top rope/belay.

3) using a chartered helicopter where a team member lowers a powerful battery-operated switchable electromagnet.

4) using a powerful R/C (radio controlled) helicopter equipped with a wireless video cam and a powerful radio-controlled switchable electromagnet.

5) using a chartered airship where a team member lowers a powerful battery-operated switchable electromagnet.

6) using a jet backpack, aka jet pack or rocket pack.

7) using a floating barge-mounted marine crane equipped with a wireless video camera and a cab-controlled grabber.

8) levitation (unfortunately, Padre Pio, the Christian saint famous for his acts of levitation, died years ago, and the Transcedental Meditation folks, for all their grandiose claims about leviitation, well, none of their disciples or students ever seem to have levitated more than a few inches or for more than two seconds.)

However, for any team efforts, I, as the cache owner, have commonsense standards for what constitutes a legitimate find claim by a team member; these standards happen to be shared by all team leaders who have so far led team efforts to tackle this cache, and also are very close to the standards extant in the extreme geocaching community.

They are: It is NOT essential that a valid and approved/accepted team member of the team must necessarily ascend the pier to claim a find if it is a climbing team, or that they be on the primary retrieval helicopter it is a helicopter retrieval, and rather, what is most important is that a find claimant must meet EACH of the following criteria:

* they are/were an approved and invited member of the team, invited by the recognized team leader.
* they unquestionably, according to the team leader and the majority of team members, performed duties during the effort that were absolutely significant and very important or vital/essential to the success of the team. This can include any of the following roles:
- acting as a spotter armed with both cell fone and two-way FRS radio, on the hill overlooking the cache site, for team efforts where a spotter is deemed essential and necessary by the team leader and also by other team members.
- supplying a great deal of the technical equipment (i.e., boats, safety gear, climibing gear, radios, aircraft, etc.) to be used and also showing up and helping out in every way possible, and where their contributions are deemed essential and necessary by the team leader and also by other team members.
- acting in the role of funding a majority of an expensive team effort; one valid example here would be the case (which I lblessed beforehand) of a German geocacher who paid over $500 for charter plus airfare to/from the USA for some of his teammates to charter a helicopter for his 3-person team to tackle the cache via helicopter (ultimately, their effort failed, for their charter pilot panicked/balked once he reached the highway bridge, looked downriver and saw the pier, and thus no members of that team were able to claim a find...).
- acting as the official invited and designated full-time photographer/videographer for the effort and also, in addition, helping out in every way possible, and where the sum total of their contributions are deemed significant and very important and worthwhile by the team leader and also by other team members.
* ultimately, once the effort has been completed, the team leader and a majority of the team members feel that the team member deserves to claim a find on the cache.

On the other hand, some roles that do not qualify for valid claim finds include any one or more of the following:

* folks who show up, uninvited and unapproved by the team leader, and act as spectators, cheering squad, cheerleaders, or as go-fers for minor and unessential functions.
* folks who show up to babysit a team member's child, lover, spouse, dog, cat, donkey, goat, ferret or gerbil, or to guard the car of a team member.
* folks who show up at the bottom of the pier to act as a personal coach and cheerleader to cheer on any particular climber who feels that he/she has problems with self-confidence in making the climb.
* folks who largely only help to pack the boats for launching at start of the effort, or help to unpack the boats at the end of the effort.
* uninvited and unapproved "team members" who have been "given permission" by team members (but not by the team leader nor by the CO) or observers, or by anyone else, to log a find. Such permissions "granted" by such unqualified persons are merely an exercise in free speech and an exercise in fantasy as well, and do NOT give another person the right to claim a find on the cache.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:01 am 
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Hey everyone. Just wanted to chime in as one of the members of the last team. I just wanted to impart a few words of wisdom.

While our logs, and previous logs, do make this seem quite doable (and it obviously is) what a lot of the logs leave out, is what it took to get there. How many hours (100s, 1,000s?)had you logged on rope prior? How many thousands of dollars in climbing gear do you own? I don't know why they call it "Special Equipment". It might as well just be called expensive equipment required.

The best advice I can give, is this cannot be accomplished without a strong core leader group of experienced climbers. We had a very competent lead climber, I was the other free climber who cleaned. The free climb was doable if you have experience but dirty as heck. To lead it, the protection is sketchy on the first pitch. Our leader took a fall which had us all holding are breaths. Truly, a serious fall is death. A minor incident such as a sprain or break, can become major due to the logistics of how to do a rescue in the middle or a river on a friggin pillar. And yes, when it comes to climbing, sprains and breaks are minor incidents. These are things climbers can spend hours contemplating before an attempt. Even with the majority of us being experienced, over 100 emails were shot about who had what and ways to approach. We had 4 or 5 ropes set up and at least four of us were fully geared to the teeth (we're talking many thousands of dollars worth of gear here) and all of it was put into use for six of us to make the trip up and down in a day plus we had ground support that did not participate in the actual finding of the cache. Additionally, the time to do this is not to be underestimated - expect to put in a full day of work. Ascending is probably the safest method, but it is very, very slow.

If you would like to try our approach, I'd be happy to answer questions but as Sue said, there are more than a few ways to skin this one and no two groups have done it exactly the same.

This is a great cache. Really, this is the cache. I've done harder in some ways but it was quite a tick to knock this one off but it took me years to get there. I truly wish you guys the best of luck, but luck will ultimately have nothing to do with it. If you are planning to do this with a large group, it will take skill and methodical planning beyond any other cache you have ever done. I truly hope this didn't come across as a sermon. You guys have time to get this together. It's more just a warning that it takes a lot of getting together to get there. This is one you really have to earn. No smiley is worth risking your life for. Get as much advice from any climbers you know if you are going to go that route. Better yet, kidnap them, steal their gear, and bring them with you.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:21 am 
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When my crew did it, everyone ascended the tower and signed the logbook. Please make sure that whoever "leads" the group is competent of making sure that everyone survives. I haven't seen anyone speak up that has that level of experience.

If you want to develop the experience, like SueCat said, learn to climb. Earthtreks has Open Climb where an instructor walks you through a few climbs.

I believe that the most important thing to tackle this is to learn is how to safely create anchors. At the end of the day, if you use ascenders, you will all be relying on the anchors to which the rope is attached. These anchors have to be "bomb-proof".

Not sure how to suggest learning about building anchors other than going out with climbers and doing some online research for the basics. REI has outdoor climbing classes that seem to focus more on climbing but I'm sure if you asked about anchoring, they may teach you. Of course, chances are that they rely on bolts on existing climbing routes so they probably don't build anchors for the class.

There are a few ways to tackle this one, the safest of which is probably buying a drone that has a camera and magnet on it. If enough folks pitch in, this may be an affordable alternative.

Image

Here are a couple of climbing caches to hone your skills:
Chuck's Wall: The Unexpected Party
Eminent Domain

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:22 am 
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Preface
Vinny here... I am the person who emplaced this cache (using a chartered helicopter and a daredveil pilot; it was a very dangerous placement using that method, due the fact that the helicopter needed to hover at an altitude of about 95 feet above ground/river level (AGL), well below the Dead Man's Curve for the helicopter...).

Notes on the Difficulty/Terrain Rating for this Cache
While some persons not familiar with this cache may have tried at times to argue that the Difficulty (D) rating is lower than 5, rest assured that this is a true D/T 5/5 cache, and that both the Difficulty and Terrain ratings of 5 were arrived at after careful consultation with a number of Groundspeak reviewers and experienced cachers. So, don't let anyone try to convince you that this cache is easier than it is. It is extremely difficult in many ways, with many potential hazards, particularly if those seeking it attempt to use any means of vertical ascent such as climbing or vertical rope work.

Notes on Trying to Tackle this Cache Using Any Kind of Climbing or Rope Techniques
This is an extremely dangerous cache to attempt to find via any kind of climbing or rope ascending (acent) or rope rappelling (descent) methods.

After Sue had made me aware of the existence of this forum thread a half hour ago, and after I had found the thread and read the early posts in it, I was all set to jump in here and give a very firm and strongly worded sermon about the very high skill levels in climbing, vertical rope work, using ascenders, and rappelling needed to even attempt this cache without dying in the process, when, thankfully, I encountered the very wise and thoughtful sermons/posts written by Sonya/Flaffle and Dave/CacheSKing. Sonya and Dave, thank you both for having taken the time to write such thoughtful, concise and clear posts!

As one who has been rock-climbing and doing vertical rope work for a great many years, I can heartily second what Sonya and Dave have related about the great level of skill and experience needed to tackle this cache using any kind of climbing or rope methods, and also the large amount of very expensive climbing equipment needed for such an attempt.

Notes on Possibility of Tackling this Cache Using a Chartered Helicopter
There are also great dangers inherent in trying to tackle this cache using a chartered helicopter and some kind of rope-mounted grabber claw or switchable electromagnet because, as I had noted earlier above, the hover altitude above ground/river level (AGL) is well below the Dead Man's Curve for any helicopter. It is also telling that the charter helicopter service at the Frederick Municipal airport from which I had charted the chopper used to emplace the cache has been approached at least 16 times across the years since the cache was published by geocachers interested in chartering a helicopter in an attempt to grab this cache, and that the charter company refused each of the charter requests, because in each case, the geocachers were not able to demonstrate a sufficiently safe and reliable method (including gear/equipment) by which they proposed to retrieve the cache, sign the logbook, and then return the cache safely to the top of the pillar.

It does seem to be true that a helicopter charter company in Virginia did agree to take at least two parties up in an attempt to tackle this cache over the past 7 years ago, but in each case, it has been reported to me that once the helicopter pilot finally saw the pillar from a distance of one or two miles away as they approached it, and realized the impossibility of the task, the pilot immediately aborted the mission and took the cachers back to the airport. Depending upon what type of helicopter these cachers had chartered, these abortive helicopter missions likely easily cost them anywhere from $280 to $600.

Notes on Possibility of Using a Remote-Helicopter (aka "Drone") for Tackling the Cache
I do want to note here that the possibilities of using a radio-controlled helicopter have become much rosier, and also less expensive, than when this cache was first emplaced. These remote-controlled (radio-controlled, or RC) helicopters, commonly called "drones" nowadays, have not only become far less expensive, but there are now numerous models available on the consumer/hobbysit market which could easily handle the combined weight of th cache container and its anchor weights, along with the weight of the necessary wireless video camera(s) and the battery/operated claw or electromagnet device.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:51 pm 
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As previously noted, we have been looking at this one for some time but only with regard to a remote retrieval and return approach, as opposed to anything involving climbing. We have slowly been accumulating equipment over time, but we are no yet ready to tackle it. Our biggest concern is the tree on top of the upstream end of the pilling, which may preclude any reasonable vertical approach.

Our method does not involve an RC aircraft. An initial assessment (three years ago) concluded that the expense and risk was too great to make that a reasonable approach. Certainly that market has seen huge shifts since then, and that may well now be a reasonable approach, certainly, at least, for a new site survey. We may pursue that later in the year. That being said, we like the design we have come up with, and will likely stick with it. The tree and weather are the two big factors which can affect us.

I reiterate here, we'd very much like to hear an after action report from the next folks who go. Critical information of value would include the height of the tree, the outermost diameter of its branches, whether or not the container is under its umbrella (that is a show stopper), and whether or not the container is tethered to the structure (we don't believe it is, but if so, that would be a show stopper as well). Our method would retrieve the container from the top of the structure, bring it down to ground level for team log signature, and return it to the top of the structure remotely.

Any remote retrieval attempt involves the risk of removing the container and failing to successfully return it, or losing it altogether. We have all along planned to consult with the CO's before any attempt, and review our engineering and recovery plan with them prior to any attempt.

An intriguing cache to be sure!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:34 pm 
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zekester wrote:
Critical information of value would include the height of the tree, the outermost diameter of its branches, whether or not the container is under its umbrella (that is a show stopper), and whether or not the container is tethered to the structure (we don't believe it is, but if so, that would be a show stopper as well).


The cache is definitely NOT within the drip line (umbrella) of the tree. However, it's kinda close.

Check out TRO's shot of me here:
Image

You can see littleblkdog standing beside me and he is in the shade of the tree. I put the cache right next to me by my left hip, right over top of the white PVC pipe sitting there. I am pretty certain I was the last one up. Jay and Phil would have cleaned up afterwards but probably didn't move it.

It is not attached to anything other than the hardware that Vinny shows in his pics. Some of the hardware (or the line attached to the Otter Box) may be under the PVC pipe but it is definitely not tied to anything. Not sure what the PVC pipe was all about. It wasn't attached to anything either.

I'm quite confident that geocachers are not the only ones that climb up there so there's a possibility that something is different.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:34 pm 
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zekester wrote:
As previously noted, we have been looking at this one for some time but only with regard to a remote retrieval and return approach, as opposed to anything involving climbing. We have slowly been accumulating equipment over time, but we are no yet ready to tackle it. Our biggest concern is the tree on top of the upstream end of the pilling, which may preclude any reasonable vertical approach.

Our method does not involve an RC aircraft. An initial assessment (three years ago) concluded that the expense and risk was too great to make that a reasonable approach. Certainly that market has seen huge shifts since then, and that may well now be a reasonable approach, certainly, at least, for a new site survey. We may pursue that later in the year. That being said, we like the design we have come up with, and will likely stick with it. The tree and weather are the two big factors which can affect us.

I reiterate here, we'd very much like to hear an after action report from the next folks who go. Critical information of value would include the height of the tree, the outermost diameter of its branches, whether or not the container is under its umbrella (that is a show stopper), and whether or not the container is tethered to the structure (we don't believe it is, but if so, that would be a show stopper as well). Our method would retrieve the container from the top of the structure, bring it down to ground level for team log signature, and return it to the top of the structure remotely.

Any remote retrieval attempt involves the risk of removing the container and failing to successfully return it, or losing it altogether. We have all along planned to consult with the CO's before any attempt, and review our engineering and recovery plan with them prior to any attempt.

An intriguing cache to be sure!


Your general approach sounds similar to the one used by the FTF team, although the tree was not a deal breaker for them at all. One team member was however given the job of diving for the cache if it fell in the water. Yep, it fell in the water! :lol: He was up to the task and retrieved it, and the cache was returned to its rightful place on top of the pillar. :-)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:48 am 
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First, thanks to Vinny and everyone else that has clearly shown that safety is the most important aspect to consider on this adventure! I can't speak for everyone, but I won't take part in this unless the team has a qualified leader and the group is following the safety advice of the leader.

I am not qualified to lead this type of climb. So, does anyone know of a qualified leader?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:20 pm 
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My husband and I are interested in joining a group for this cache, but if our method of approach is to climb the pillar, we only have a little climbing experience in a wall-climbing gym, not real rock-climbing. We're signing up for an Earth Treks membership later in the month and buying our own gear, but it sounds like we need someone with years of experience and lots of equipment to even attempt this. I have friends in VA who're seasoned rock-climbers with years of experience and all their own gear, but they're not Geocachers. I'll try asking them to join us.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:27 pm 
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Has anyone been able to find a more experienced climber to join us?

If not, I'd still like to check this out (but on Friday rather than Thursday) and put actually climbing on my bucket list for a less busy time.


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