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DNR Cache Approvals in Gambrill/Cunningham Falls State Parks

Plan your group hikes/get-togethers, discuss caches in need of TLC/adoption plus new & favorite caches, as well as park/geocacher relations.
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Vinny
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DNR Cache Approvals in Gambrill/Cunningham Falls State Parks

Post by Vinny »

In an earlier post on another thread in the Park Geocacher Relations section, I had recently posted some detailed contact information for the DNR cache reviewer -- Lt. Mark Maas -- for Gambrill State Park and Cunningham Falls State Park. I had also included contact info for the relevant DNR adminstrators/officers who handle Frederick City Watershed properties as well. As for Gambrill/Cuningham approvals, I had also relayed a promise/hope from Mark Maas that his office had reached a point where they would be be able to approve cache applications for placements in these two parks very quickly. Unfortunately, on the downside, they entered their busy season a few days later.... and we have now just entered summer; this is the busiest season of all for Mark Maas and his staff.

As part of an effort to streamline cache applications for these two parks, and due to an ongoing pre-existing cordial relationship which I have had with DNR, Mark Maas has asked me, and my wife Sue as well, to work as volunteer cache reviewers for all cache applications for Gambrill and Cunningham Falls State parks, and thus all future cache applications will be forwarded to us for checking and review. We will try to get most reviews/inspections completed and return a recommendation to Mark and his staff within 3 days of receipt of a copy of each application, if not far sooner.

All we will ask is that you give us -- in your application -- the exact coordinates for the cache and all cache stages (yes, even if it is a riddle!), and that you include in your application the Difficulty/Terrain rating which you plan to assign to your cache; this allows us to work with DNR to determine if said ratings seem to be reasonably accurate and realistic. For our role, Sue and I will visit each candidate cache, and of course, our visits will be logged as reviews/verification. Further, we will -- of course -- NOT be claiming "First-to-Find" (FTF) on any such caches, and any log entries which we make will state our role and the nature of our visit explicitly. We should also be able to provide some feedback to placers on accuracy of waypoints as well, based upon our experiences so far.

From this point on, as an expedient measure, until and if we/you receive further notice from DNR on this matter, for any cache placements in Gambrill State Park or Cunningham Falls State Park, I suggest that you feel free to place your cache at the cache site as soon as you send your application to DNR, despite the fact that the first item in the DNR Western Region approval form states that you should not place your cache until after you have received final formal approval. This early tentative approval for placement will allow all relevant parties at DNR to review the cache placement in a real-world setting prior to issuing final approval. Of course, I would suggest that you do not file/activate your cache listing at geocaching.com (for reviewer action) until you have received formal notice (often via e-mail) from DNR of final approval. Of course, if your application is denied, or if you are asked to relocate the cache, then DNR will expect you to comply within a reasonable time frame.

As a concluding note, the recent super-speedy approval which Vyper4 received from DNR for his new Center of the Triangle puzzle cache in Gambrill State Park was the first beneficiary of our new working relationship with Mark's office. DoYouKnowCourtney has also advised us that he will shortly be placing an new cache in Gambrill as well. It looks like Gambrill is well on the way to becoming a major cache site.

Enjoy!
Vinny, of Vinny & Sue Team
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Post by tossedsalad »

Sounds great! I'm glad you two have such a good relationship with DNR. Good job!

You mention only Gambrill and CFSP. So caches in the South Mountain area should go through the standard channels? Is this because the area is not so convienient to you or because the people you are working with are only responsible for the two areas you mention?
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Post by Vinny »

Hi Tossed -- yes, you have guessed correctly -- the only two state parks handled by Mark and his team from their offices in Thurmont are Gambrill and Cunningham Falls (the latter of which is actually an incredibly large park, with much land even down in the area commonly referenced as the "Frederick Watershed".) The other parks are administered by other DNR Parks offices scattered across the state. And, no, I do not know those folks at the other DNR offices nor have a working relationship with them, and so our role will not extend to their regions or parks.

Rather, it was Mark (and his team) at Thurmont who had approached us a while ago and proposed these roles, and the early trial stages worked out real well; everyone seems to be very happy. The only other DNR office with which I have siginificant contact -- and with which we will be working closely in this role -- will be Donny Rorhrback's DNR Wildlife Division office (at Seneca) in Montgomery County, since they oversee all city-owned Frederick watershed lands, and most of the borders of Gambrill and lower Cunningham are congruent and confluent with Frederick city watershed lands.

BTW, we have identified a couple of old legacy caches from years ago which are emplaced in Cunningham (and possibly one in Gambrill) and which never went thru the approval process, and I will be working with those cache owners to get their caches grandfathered in and approved in short order. More on that in a later e-mail in this thread!
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Sequeing or Grandfathering In Old Legacy Cunningham Caches

Post by Vinny »

Just a brief heads-up in case you may know anyone involved with the caches involved... As I have briefly mentioned in an earlier e-mail, Mark Maas and I have identified a couple of old legacy caches from years ago which are -- and have long been -- emplaced in Cunningham Falls State Park (and possibly one in Gambrill as well, but that is another story...) and which never went thru the DNR approval process. As part of my new role with DNR, I will be working with those cache owners to get their caches grandfathered in (segued in) to full approval status and approved in short order.

I will, over the next few days, be contacting the owners of both old legacy caches in Cunningham Falls, gently explaining the approval process, share forms/guidelines, and ask them to submit the approval forms to Mark. In each case, the legacy caches will be allowed to remain in place and to continue to be listed at geocaching.com during this segueing-into-the-full-approval-pipeline process. Sue and I have already visited and inspected both caches, and both are largely in compliance with curent DNR requiremeents. The only thing really needed for either cache to bring it fully into compliance -- since the actual locations and other factors seem quite acceptable -- will be the placement of additional signage/labeling on exterior surfaces identifying the container; both are rather notably lacking in that!

To reiterate one point from above, these caches will be allowed to remain in service, to remain in place, and to continue to be listed at geocaching.com during this transition-to-fully-compliant-and-approved process. The only way in which the tentative approval and current listing of either cache (at gc.com) could possibly be endangered would be if a cache owner refused to work with us to bring their cache external labeling into full compliance with DNR requirments and with geocachong.com requirements, or refused to fill out and return the approval forms to DNR. Frankly, if such were to come to pass, any such cache would likley be considered to be abandoned, and would likely simply be adopted by a local cacher, much as Vyper4 recently adopted Castle Rock and DoYoiuKnowCourtney adopted Gambrill State Park Cache #1.
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Post by Vinny »

BTW, one additional note regarding one of those legacy caches at Cunningham:

The owner of Insan4Life will also be asked to revise his (antiquated) instructions for parking/access on the listing page at geocaching.com, since his current parking instructions almost guarantee that a would-be cache hunter will park on a road where parking is not allowed, and that they would then trespass on posted private property (owned by a fish and game club adjacent to Cunningham Falls State Park) in order to reach parklands. The cache owner will be provided with text containing recommended parking and access instructions.
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Post by douknowcourtney »

Vinny, Now that makes for a great Park / Geocaching relationship. That is great that they are invloving you like they have. Now if we can just get DNR to list geocaching on there website :wink:
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Post by Vinny »

Well, actually, on a related note, when Fall approaches and the really busy park season winds down, , if MGS wishes to provide some volunteers armed with GPSr's, or maybe even some loaners from a manufacturer (e.g., Magellan, Garmin, etc.) I suspect that there is GREAT potential that the DNR folks who run Gambrill/Cunningham would much welcome a one-day or half-day event -- at one of their parks -- sponsored by MGS which would be an introduction to GPSr usage, to orienteering and to geocaching. If this comes to pass, we might even wish to place a few new caches in that park to give more caches to find, including a few really easy ones for beginners.
I plan to gently explore this idea with Mark Maas when he and his staffers are less overwhelmed with tourists and visitors jamming the parks.

However, the potential is there...
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Post by douknowcourtney »

I wanted to say thanks to Vinny for all his help and work with DNR on the cache I have adopted in Gambrill, just waiting on the final approvel now. :thanks
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Post by Vinny »

Followup
And, just as a followup to Courtney's note, allow me to briefly describe -- for those who may be interested -- what is going on regarding this cache and what DNR is reviewing at this point.

A Brief History of this Cache and Its Adventures
Briefly, to recap: Courtney has recently filed an application for DNR approval to place a new cache container not far from the old Gambrill State Park Cache #1 site. And, as many of you may remember, a close reading of the logs of that cache listing page, along with some posts sent to the MGS forum, reveals that a family of cache hunters was confronted by a hunter early in deer hunting season last year while hunting this cache. After being advised what they were doing (e.g., hunting for a cache) he claimed that they we were trespassing on his private property and further claimed that the cache was located on his private property.

A short while later, in early December 2004, a man claiming to be a local property owner -- using the name"Mister Landowner" -- filed a brief log on the cache listing page, claiming that the cache had been placed on his private property and that he had confiscated it and turned it over to DNR. It seems likely that this man and the hunter encountered in the woods were one and the same.

Current Status
As noted above, Courtney has filed has recently filed an application for DNR approval to place a new cache container not far from the old Gambrill State Park #1 site. It is my understanding, after reviewing the application and visiting the cache site repeatedly, that DNR believes that this cache is fully in compliance with DNR requirements for cache placement. Thus, if the cache is truly located within the boundaries of Gambrill State Park, approval should be quick and easeful. And, it seems at this point -- from both review of latter-day USGS topo maps and from multiple site visits to locate the nearest park boundary markers -- that the cache location is well within the boundaries of Gambrill State Park, by about 0.22 mile.

However, and this is the big "HOWEVER":
Given the contested history of the siting of this cache, and the likelihood that the self-described private property landowner could surface again and could again attempt to remove and confiscate the cache, Lt. Mark Maas (at DNR) and I decided that it would be wisest for DNR to examine this matter very closely from their end to ensure unequivocally and firmly that the cache site is indeed located well within Gambrill Park Boundaries. All preliminary indications are that the cache site is indeed located within Gambrill Park boundaries, but a final decision has not yet been reached by DNR, as they are currently in their busiest park visitor-usage season, and time is at a premium. However, they will try to render an answer on loation within the next week or two as time is available for further research and for an on-site visit by park administrators to review park boundaries.

If it is determined (and this seems most likely at this point) that the cache site is DEFINITELY within park boundaries, and thus within DNR jurisdiction, then it appears almost certain that DNR will give the cache a speedy approval; I have already okayed it on my end as a DNR volunteer approver. On the other hand, if an intensive review by DNR of property boundaries should reveal that the cache is NOT located within Gambrill State Park, then DNR will, of course, have no juridiction over the cache placement, and could at most simply advise the cache placer that the cache site appears to be located on private property and that DNR has no jurisdiction over such properties.

Were it not for the fact that we are in the midst of their busiest season, DNR would likely have completed their intensive review of park property boundaries by now. However, given that the park adminstrators are very busy managing the visitor influx right now, I suspect that their review of property lines could take another week or two. I have offered to help them in any way possible to reslove this matter and to determine for sure that this point lies within Gambrill State Park boundaries. They have already reviewed the waypoint on several civil/geopolitical maps (aka "street maps") and topographic maps available online, and each of these sources show the cache waypoint to be 0.22 miles inside boundaries of Gambrill State Park; further research remains to be done to verify the bondaries.

One interesting ramification of all this intensive review of cache placement vis-a-vis park property lines by DNR is that if the cache does turn out the be located on park property -- and this seems quite likely at this point -- then any putative private property owner who attempted in the future to obstruct travel within park properties by cache hunters or to remove the cache would face potential legal action by DNR and could also be liable for criminal and civil actions filed by the cache holder and appropriate authorities.
Vinny, of Vinny & Sue Team
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Post by robert »

Vinny

When you're considering what is and what isn't park property, are you taking the coordinates on the cache page into consideration or the actual location of the cache container? The coordinates are indeed inside park property but the final location of the cache is what was being contested.

Are you saying the original placement of the cache was indeed on park property? (again, forgetting about the coords on the page).

Daisychain went out there last time and took coords of the spot where the cache was and the other distinguishing marks of the "property owner's" claim.

Image

It was also discussed <a href="http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index. ... opic=85353" target="_blank">in the gc.com forums</a> and <a href="http://www.mdgps.org/modules.php?name=F ... pic&t=1424" target="_blank">here on this site</a> quite extensively.

Just make sure you have all the information before you go in there. The original cache was placed with DNR approval (according to the cache page) so hopefully they still have record of it.
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Post by Vinny »

Robert, all parties concerned are looking only at the exact waypoint coordinates of the final cache site. Courtney disclosed this waypoint in his DNR application, and he has since revisited the site and verified those measurements 4X with three diffferent GPSrs, and Sue and I have verified them as well with two different GPSrs using 8 minute averaging as well as triangulation from high points. All measures agree within .002 minutes of the original waypoint stated by Courtney.

So yes, DNR has the coordinates for the final cache site. In fact, neither Courtney nor I even bothered to tell them about the starting waypoint at the trailhead parking lot, as that could have really confused matters!

BTW, the waypoint in question is about 400 feet west of Gambrill Park Road (GPR) and not too far from Yellowstone and Radio Star. In fact, when we hike in to visit the site we simply park on GPR and hike in a few hundred feet.
Last edited by Vinny on Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by robert »

As long as the new site is within park property, no problem. If you're going back to the old site, that's bad news until DNR can verify boundaries.
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Post by Vinny »

Robert, thanks for your second update, and yes, I was aware of most of the threads on the topic, and have read many in the past. Some older topo maps, including many GPSr maps which are drived from older USGS topo maps, show the point to be just OUTSIDE the park boundary, perhaps by 50 to 100 feet or more. On the other hand, the topo maps at TopoZone and several other services, as well as the street maps at MapQuest and several other online services, show the cache to be about 0.22 mi. inside current Gambrill State Park boundaries. DNR has indicated to me that they believe the cache site is located well within park boundaries, and I agree, but they are double-checking to be absolutely sure.
Last edited by Vinny on Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by robert »

Perfect, thanks for the help on that one. Let me know if you need anything.

:D
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Vinny
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Post by Vinny »

Robert wrote recently:
As long as the new site is within park property, no problem. If you're going back to the old site, that's bad news until DNR can verify boundaries.
Yes, this is what I was trying to say in my original post. The proposed cache site IS very close to the old site, in the vicinity of the same boulder (I am trying so hard here not to give any spoilers!), and this is EXACTLY why Lt. Mark Maas and I decided -- despite his initial belief that this cache site is located well within park boundaries -- that the boundaries here deserved a VERY CLOSE scrutiny by DNR. That is ongoing at this point. I have offered them use of our GPSrs if needed, or to hike in with rangers, and also provided DNR staffers with a brief tutorial and links to allow them to find waypoints on TopoZone and MapQuest online (yes, the latter included a tutorial on how to convert across coordinate notation systems at the Terraserver conversion page...)

Now, let me adjust that aluminum foil helmet on my head!
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Post by robert »

If the foil hat is too tight you might lose some signal back there!!

:smt032
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Post by jan896 »

Hey vinny.... please ck your PM :D
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Vinny
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Post by Vinny »

Jan, just checked my PM, and see nothing new there! If you sent a PM, it did not arrive. If anyone needs to reach me, you can -- as an alternative to PM, which sems to be a bit unreliable -- always just send me an e-mail at
vinny111@mindspring.com or see my contact info on the SECRET CONTACT LIST!
:)
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Post by tossedsalad »

Just my two cents worth, but if DNR is going to try to establish where the boundary is for legal purposes, nothing short of working from survey markers or something (like a fence) which was placed based on survey markers will be of much value.

Using a map is of little value in this sort of thing since it can not be traced back to legal definitions. Of course, if you have found permanent markers a GPS can be used to establish where a line would be between markers within the tolerance range of the unit and conditions.

I am sure you know all this. It's just that my ears perked up when you said you offered DNR the use of your GPSrs. Using them with online or other maps is of little value for this need.
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Post by Vinny »

Hi Tossed -- the timing of your post is perfect because this is exactly the conversation that Robert and I have been iterating via private messages over the past couple of hours! Yes, I believe that all primary parties concerned in the matter do understand this point. There were, of course, several posts sent on this topic to both the MGS and the national forums late last year where the posters may not have understood that point. The funny thing about the current wyapoint is that about 50% of maps show it inside park boundaries, and the other 50% show it outside, and thus the ambiguity and unreliability of map demarcations is strongly illustrated in this case.

Mark Maas at DNR has described to me every type of secondary boundary marker (traceable to corner marker alignment) which is in use at GSP boundaries: they may be either of two types of small white signs, or one other type of marking in paint or ribbon which Mark has described in detail. These are all secondary markers, but still hold good weight. He has also described to me how to identify and locate their fixed corner markers, which are one of several types of a primary surveying reference. Sue and I hope to get out in the field tomorrow to hunt for the nearest such markers to the cache site. We all believe that they lie about 0.2 mle to the west, but we may be wrong!.

As an update on the whole matter:
In an email sent an hour ago, Mark Maas at DNR indicated that he is now quite confident that the point lies within GSP, and has indicated that he will likely issue approval once the threatening storm alerts have passed. However, he has offered to check with a few more folks at DNR just to be sure on the boundary issue; just to be absolutely sure.

BTW, the primary use of the waypoint and of GPSrs and topo maps in this case is to illustrate to park staffers exactly where this cache site lies on the map and in relation to the Yellow Poplar Trail and other features. A second purpose of the GPSrs is to allow them to take a quick hike into the forest off Gambrill Park Road to find the site and review local (primary and secondary) boundary markers themselves.
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